Wheel landing versus 3 point.

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6863 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:45 am

I forgot to mention in the post above - 1700 RPM is the power setting at which on a cool day the C-90 on my 120 can take plane and pilot airborne on a cool day. But I'm not sure why anyone would make that standard practice.
John Kliewer

"Make things as simple as possible but no simpler." Albert Einstiein

"Wheels move the body. Wings move the soul."

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6643 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:51 am

To avoid "shock heating?" ;)

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 8322 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:30 pm

I believe one of the best things we can do to add control to our birds at landing is add VG's... I'm a 3 point guy but seems like advantage would go to wheelie guys too. With those VG's you have control authority darn near all the way down into taxi speed... Now that I have them I have so much more control authority, no additional rudder control but definitely ailerons for crosswinds, those ailerons just work all the way, so one can come in insanely slow. If I'm on my game if I hold her off in the 3pt attitude long enough and a touch of brake as soon as I'm on the ground you are at taxi speed in about a heartbeat and a half it seems... They take a bit of getting used to, but man do they give you more control and ability to land slooooowwww

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 8482 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:48 am

6298 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:07 pm
6643 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:52 pm
You can get down and stopped faster and shorter with a wheel landing. Also, works best for spot landing contests. The three-pointer is a lot more comfortable for low (tailwheel) time pilots. If you never go anywhere really short or tricky you may never need a wheel landing, but it can't hurt to get proficient at it anyhow.
Years ago,when you said that, I tried to land shorter with wheel landings. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. I find that full stall landings work best on my relatively short field. We might have to stage a contest one day.
Agreed, Full stall and hitting the tail-wheel first gives the shortest possible landing in the 120/140 in my experience.

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 5422 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:41 pm

I added VG’s during our restoration of a C-140 with an O-200. The plane behaves much different than before. During slow flight the plane has a very high nose high attitude up to stall. The stall itself has a much harder break than it did before, This goes for both power off and on. The plane does seem to fly 2-3 mph slower. Once the wing lets go, it lets go pretty aggressively (I flight tested it before VG’s were installed and it was the usual benign mush, buffett and mild break). The roll control at slow speeds is slightly better but you only notice it in that unusual nose high attitude. Even then you would have to have a bunch of hours to notice it is only slightly better than without VG’s. With 8.50x6.00 tires if you tried to 3 point it in a true FULL stall the tail would touch WAY before the mains. We have 29” Bushwheel tires now and it’s better but even at low speed on rollout even if you think the tail is done and ready to be down for good you hold full aft wheel and the mains will get light or come off ground (BTW I wheel land 99% of the time).

I can land shorter coming in full flaps just ever so slightly behind the power curve doing a tail low (almost touching ground first) touchdown. When the mains touch power idle, push nose forward to a zero or negative angle of attack while braking heavily and modulating the elevator to hold desired rollout attitude then slowly letting off brakes to lower tail easily. This puts more weight on mains to aid in braking as well. I have found this technique has better braking or slowing results on wet grass, mud and wet mud covered rocks than the 3 point landing. You still slide a bit but not as much as the three pointer. Not to mention you have better forward visibility on roll out and you also save abuse on that 70+ year old tail assembly (esp on rocks,logs etc.) This technique was taught to me 25 yrs ago by a fellow airtaxi pilot when I was being trained in a C-185/180. It has works for me in Supercubs as well. We still use our 140 to go to off airport places for hunting and fishing but those places are picked VERY carefully. If I need to go to more challenging areas I use a PA-18 with 35” tires.

I would have put those VG’s on with double sided tape during the test and taken them off after. Why? I feel that they really don’t make a big enough difference in handling characteristics. I have flown that plane for decades and know it inside and out. It flew just fine without them. BUT I permanently glued them on (After all they can’t hurt anything right?) so my lazy ass is leaving them on.
As far as STOL charctaristics...........it’s not a strong point for a 140. That being said there are a couple of guys up here that routinely go in and out of a 700ft sea level strip. Neither have VG’s but they both have big engines (O-200,O-290). You may land short, but you will be hard pressed to takeoff in the same distance(unless light and a huge headwind).

These are just my personal views as I can only speak for myself. We all fly our planes however we want and if that’s what works for us individually then that is what is important. That goes for any mods that one feels might enhance the safety aspect as well. Modify your plane as you want and be happy! Not many folks have that freedom to own a plane to do so.

Watch some YouTube videos from that Valdez flyin STOL competition. Most of those really short landings are wheelies.

Enough BS from me.LOL

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6643 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:01 pm

8482 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:48 am
Full stall and hitting the tail-wheel first gives the shortest possible landing in the 120/140 in my experience.
5422 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:41 pm
I can land shorter coming in full flaps just ever so slightly behind the power curve doing a tail low (almost touching ground first) touchdown. When the mains touch power idle, push nose forward to a zero or negative angle of attack while braking heavily and modulating the elevator to hold desired rollout attitude then slowly letting off brakes to lower tail easily.
A full stall 3 pointer gives you the lowest touchdown speed and shortest rollout, but the second technique allows you to land shorter over an obstacle. That distance spent bleeding off speed for the full stall landing can be spent braking (heavily) with the wheel landing.

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6352 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:49 pm

Just to flog a dead horse, I will keep the thread going. I can land either 3 point or wheel And practice both but wonder about all the folks talking about wheel landing followed by heavy braking. That certainly works in some situations, but I don’t like changing brake shoes that much so I try not to use the brakes any more than absolutely necessary. Wheel landing followed by heavy braking is a good technique to have in your pocket but I seldom use it. My 140 will never be a stol contender at Valdez. The best argument for wheel landing is babying the tailwheel. I am all about babying my baby.
Mike Rabe
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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 7896 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:27 am

I still consider myself a relative newby after 3+ years and a few hundred landings. That said, I've taken to wheel landings on pavement and 3-Pt on grass. I feel like wheel landings are the least wear & tear on the system as a whole, but a good full stall 3-Pt'er on grass feels so right.

Just my $0.02,
Michael Haas
'46 120 - N76219
Home Base: W96 (Quinton, VA)

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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6352 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:45 pm

Agree about 3 point landings. A good 3 pointer is nirvana. But I wheel landing on pavement as long as the wind is 90 or less. My controlled airfield often has me landing with tailwinds (why?) and I 3 pt in those situations.
Mike Rabe
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Re: Wheel landing versus 3 point.

Post by 6478 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:09 am

Personally, with those tailwind landings I think they're taking bets on us in the tower ;)
Dean DeRosia
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