Landing strip

A Place to Share Experiences and Discuss Aviation Stories

Moderators: 6643, 6183, V529

Forum rules
You must be a member of the Cessna 120-140 Association in order to post new topics, reply to existing topics, or search for information on this forum. Use the "Join" link in the red menu bar.
5422
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 7:00 am
Location: Alaska
Name: Art
Aircraft Type: C-140, PA-18
Occupation-Interests: 737 Wrangler
Contact:

Re: Landing strip

Post by 5422 »

8451 wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am From what I’ve seen before opinions are varied but would vortex generators be beneficial for routine short field operations as proposed here?
Lot of discussion on this subject in the past. One fellow had a good idea of putting them on with double sided tape and then fly it to see if you like them or not. Ours ended up flying a bit slower with id say better roll control but it was an unusually nose high attitude I would never land at. This is a paste of my experience from a former post. Keep in mind all planes are different.

“I added VG’s during our restoration of a C-140 with an O-200. The plane behaves much different than before. During slow flight the plane has a very high nose high attitude up to stall. The stall itself has a much harder break than it did before, This goes for both power off and on. The plane does seem to fly 2-3 mph slower. Once the wing lets go, it lets go pretty aggressively (I flight tested it before VG’s were installed and it was the usual benign mush, buffett and mild break). The roll control at slow speeds is slightly better but you only notice it in that unusual nose high attitude. Even then you would have to have a bunch of hours to notice it is only slightly better than without VG’s. With 8.50x6.00 tires if you tried to 3 point it in a true FULL stall the tail would touch WAY before the mains. We have 29” Bushwheel tires now and it’s better but even at low speed on rollout even if you think the tail is done and ready to be down for good you hold full aft wheel and the mains will get light or come off ground (BTW I wheel land 99% of the time).

I can land shorter coming in full flaps just ever so slightly behind the power curve doing a tail low (almost touching ground first) touchdown. When the mains touch power idle, push nose forward to a zero or negative angle of attack while braking heavily and modulating the elevator to hold desired rollout attitude then slowly letting off brakes to lower tail easily. This puts more weight on mains to aid in braking as well. I have found this technique has better braking or slowing results on wet grass, mud and wet mud covered rocks than the 3 point landing. You still slide a bit but not as much as the three pointer. Not to mention you have better forward visibility on roll out and you also save abuse on that 70+ year old tail assembly (esp on rocks,logs etc.) This technique was taught to me 25 yrs ago by a fellow airtaxi pilot when I was being trained in a C-185/180. It has works for me in Supercubs as well. We still use our 140 to go to off airport places for hunting and fishing but those places are picked VERY carefully. If I need to go to more challenging areas I use a PA-18 with 35” tires.

I would have put those VG’s on with double sided tape during the test and taken them off after. Why? I feel that they really don’t make a big enough difference in handling characteristics. I have flown that plane for decades and know it inside and out. It flew just fine without them. BUT I permanently glued them on (After all they can’t hurt anything right?) so my lazy ass is leaving them on.
As far as STOL charctaristics...........it’s not a strong point for a 140. That being said there are a couple of guys up here that routinely go in and out of a 700ft sea level strip. Neither have VG’s but they both have big engines (O-200,O-290). You may land short, but you will be hard pressed to takeoff in the same distance(unless light and a huge headwind).

These are just my personal views as I can only speak for myself. We all fly our planes however we want and if that’s what works for us individually then that is what is important. That goes for any mods that one feels might enhance the safety aspect as well. Modify your plane as you want and be happy! Not many folks have that freedom to own a plane to do so.

Watch some YouTube videos from that Valdez flyin STOL competition. Most of those really short landings are wheelies.

Enough BS from me.LOL”
8482
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:34 pm
Location: California
Name: Samuel G
Aircraft Type: '46 140
Occupation-Interests:
Contact:

Re: Landing strip

Post by 8482 »

Mine has been flying off of the same 1200' grass strip in central California since 1952. It has the O-200 in it now but didn't always have it. On a hot day and heavy I will use the entire 1200' (i'm talking 95°F plus). On a cool day and light I use half of that. I can get it down and stopped in 350'. I'm the third generation owner now.

1200' is plenty with no obstacles. Just be mindful of weight and density altitude on the hot days. Keep the grass short, ground and tires hard.
8322
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 am
Location: Greenville, MI
Name: Raymond H
Aircraft Type: C-140
Occupation-Interests: Sales Manager of Michigan Merchant Services
Contact:

Re: Landing strip

Post by 8322 »

8451 wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am From what I’ve seen before opinions are varied but would vortex generators be beneficial for routine short field operations as proposed here?
YES!!!! Those things get you in ground effect I would venture to say 20-30% quicker, the plane will still fly unbelievably slow... On a calm day with no headwind there are times i come accross the numbers at 55 and float hundreds of feet and though I burn up some runway that way I'm touching down at 40 maybe (IDK I don't look at the ASI) so the ground roll is short. My goal this year is to really work that approach and see how slow I feel safe and how short that makes it...

But I was beyond impressed with how they helped, I put them on shortly before flying out west on a trip and even with high DA I thought she performed very well, never going to be a super-cub but respected she will get the job done.

With no real obstructions you could probably use the old trick of waiting till she's moving pretty good but not ready to fly yet and pop full flaps and get off the ground instantly, stay in GE to build speed and go...

But I could not be happier with my VGs...
User avatar
6643
Posts: 2337
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 7:00 am
Location: KLCI
Name: John C
Aircraft Type: 1946 C140/C90
Occupation-Interests: A&P, semi-retired
Contact:

Re: Landing strip

Post by 6643 »

8322 wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:24 am But I could not be happier with my VGs...
What system did you use?
8322
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 am
Location: Greenville, MI
Name: Raymond H
Aircraft Type: C-140
Occupation-Interests: Sales Manager of Michigan Merchant Services
Contact:

Re: Landing strip

Post by 8322 »

the micro Vg's... My IA said that is the most complete kit to do anything he's ever saw, it even came with a tape measure!!!
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests